Reminder: The One Page Poetry Circle will meet March 12 to discuss Poetry and Seduction at St. Agnes Branch NYPL, 444 Amsterdam Ave. 3rd Fl, NY, NY 10024. Handicapped accessible.
Andrew Marvell’s “To His Coy Mistress,” 
one of the most famous poems written in English, was probably written in the 1650s while Marvel was tutoring the daughter of Sir Thomas Fairfax. The poem has traits of the metaphysical and of the carpe diem philosophy. Although it seems to be written in order to seduce a woman, it is also about sex and love and time. The poem is in three stanzas. Our comments appear after each stanza.
Had we but world enough, and time,
This coyness, lady, were no crime.
We would sit down and think which way
To walk, and pass our long love’s day;
Thou by the Indian Ganges’ side
Shouldst rubies find; I by the tide
Of Humber would complain. I would
Love you ten years before the Flood;
And you should, if you please, refuse
Till the conversion of the Jews.
My vegetable love should grow
Vaster than empires, and more slow.
An hundred years should go to praise
Thine eyes, and on thy forehead gaze;
Two hundred to adore each breast,
But thirty thousand to the rest;
An age at least to every part,
And the last age should show your heart.
For, lady, you deserve this state,
Nor would I love at lower rate.
Abigail: The first stanza describes love in slow motion, “vegetable love,” that can take ages and knows no restraint of time or place. Marvell’s reference to “the conversion of the Jews” shows a common anti-Semitism. According to the Christian Bible all Jews will be converted to Christianity before the second coming of Jesus which will happen at the end of time—a long ways away.
AnnaLee: I find many ways to read Marvell’s poem, but the most fun for me is to see it as three stages of a seduction, from foreplay to full arousal to a plea for consummation—as seen through the male narrator’s eyes. The ideas are sometimes disguised in metaphor and reference (who is being coy here?) and sometimes in straight-forward and frontal terms. At first the narrator seems to be cajoling his lady-love who is playing hard to get. From the start he tells her that if they had all the time in the world she would have the luxury to be as coy as she wants, even holding out until the end of time. When he says, “My vegetable love should grow/Vaster than the empires, and more slow,” I have to laugh. While he refers to something as benign and slow growing as a vegetable (even the word seems sexless), I read that his passion for her swells in the form of his ripe erection. He would devote an age to adore each part of her body in lengthy foreplay giving her lower parts extra time all the while growing more aroused.
But at my back I always hear
Time’s winged chariot hurrying near;
And yonder all before us lie
Deserts of vast eternity.
Thy beauty shall no more be found,
Nor, in thy marble vault, shall sound
My echoing song; then worms shall try
That long preserv’d virginity,
And your quaint honour turn to dust,
And into ashes all my lust.
The grave’s a fine and private place,
But none I think do there embrace.
Abigail: In the second stanza the narrator hears “Time’s winged chariot” and imagines the grave of the woman in which “worms shall try/That love preserv’d virginity.” Here the narrator seems to lose patience with his first approach and suggests the need for speed. Modesty is of no use since we will all die so soon—so none of it matters. The focus is not on romance or love but on carpe diem, the need to seize the day before the “quaint honour” of the intact hymen becomes food for the worms.
AnnaLee: In the second stanza I see the quickening of his desire and the reality that waiting may lead to loss of opportunity. He wants to consummate the act with her, before it’s too late and he loses his ardor or ejaculates. His references to “your marble vault” and “your quaint honour” seem to speak of her vulva for in death and ejaculation it would all be over. When he writes, “The grave’s a fine and private place,/But none I think do there embrace,” he tells her that we are mortal and if she waits all will be over and she will have no company there. So why is she saving it?
Now therefore, while the youthful hue
Sits on thy skin like morning dew,
And while thy willing soul transpires
At every pore with instant fires,
Now let us sport us while we may;
And now, like am’rous birds of prey,
Rather at once our time devour,
Than languish in his slow-chapp’d power.
Let us roll all our strength, and all
Our sweetness, up into one ball;
And tear our pleasures with rough strife
Through the iron gates of life.
Thus, though we cannot make our sun
Stand still, yet we will make him run.
Abigail: The third stanza attempts to reconcile the two views of the world in the first two stanzas and the narrator makes his real move. Yet here the images are not beautiful; he calls on the woman to sport with him “like am’rous birds of prey.” There is an impatience here that sounds less than seductive in its description of rough pleasure. Somehow Marvell, who is capable of such beautiful and imaginative verse, reveals that he has little time for the actual seduction. He promises to “tear our pleasures with rough strife/Through the iron gates of life.” Those iron gates remind me of the tomb again and I for one am not tempted to jump into his bed. Has Marvell outwitted himself?
AnnaLee: Finally, in the third stanza, the narrator can’t contain himself anymore. He is fully aroused and says it’s time to have sex in wild perhaps violent abandon like hungry birds feasting on meat. Since she is a young virgin, the act is sure to be bloody. Here he speaks again of her vulva but this time he refers to it as the iron gates of life. His manhood will penetrate the gates and a child will be born through the gates. In the last two lines I see many meanings and nuances. One idea I take away is, though we can’t prolong the moment of ecstasy, indefinitely, we can enjoy it now (seize the day).
What do you think the poem’s last two lines mean?
One Page Poetry Circle 
I agree with AnnaLee, that the last two lines can be summed up by “seize the day” (carpe diem).
I have read a commentary that compares Marvell’s “To His Coy Mistress” with John Donne’s “The Sunne Rising.” But I think a better comparison might be to Robert Herrick’s “To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time.”
To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time
Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old Time is still a-flying;
And this same flower that smiles today
Tomorrow will be dying.
The glorious lamp of heaven, the sun,
The higher he’s a-getting,
The sooner will his race be run,
And nearer he’s to setting.
That age is best which is the first,
When youth and blood are warmer;
But being spent, the worse, and worst
Times still succeed the former.
Then be not coy, but use your time,
And while ye may, go marry;
For having lost but once your prime,
You may forever tarry.
–Robert Herrick
Marvell and Herrick were contemporaries, so it shouldn’t be surprising that they use some of the same words to express a similar idea. For example, in Marvells poem, he speaks of the sun being made to “run.” And in Herrick’s poem, he speaks of the sun as having a “race [to] be run.”
Also, Marvell’s poem is a plea to his mistress to not be so coy, since, using an if-then argument, he implies that coyness IS a crime, since none of us truly has all the time in the world (in spite of often liking to think we do). Likewise, Herrick admonishes the virgins to “be not coy.”
“Coy” is a word that pops up in the literature of this era; it is used by Shakespeare at least a couple of times. It first appears in English in the 14th century.
When one wonders why poets of this era were so intent on “seizing the day,” one can’t help but notice that there were frequent outbreaks of ‘the plague’ in England during this era. Could this be a contributing factor to having a sense of the fleetingness of time (and therefore life)?
Changing the subject slightly, has a poem ever been used successfully as a tool of seduction? It seems to me that the projected ‘sensitivity’ of the poet, ie. the poet’s persona, is a more useful tool of seduction than any single poem. After all, Francesca and Paolo were reading a PROSE version of the story of Lancelot and Guinevere when, as Dante has Francesca tell it, overcome by lust engendered by the tale, “that day we read no more.” Marvell may have gotten further faster with his mistress if he had just read the story of Lancelot and Guinevere with her!
I would like to revise one sentence in my previous post: Could this be a contributing factor to having a heightened sense of the fleetingness of time (and therefore life)?
Well, I’m already revising my contention about the lack of the ability of poems to seduce. If one considers popular song lyrics to be a type of poetry, then it seems that there have been songs that, when played at the right time, have led to acts of carnal lust, if anecdotal evidence is to be believed. But in such instances it may be difficult to separate the seduction potential of the music from the seduction potential of the lyrics, or even the seduction potential of the sound quality of the singer’s voice in and of itself.
Well I certainly believe poetry can be an aid in seduction.
In response to the poem by Robert Herrick, for another possible comparison I add “The Flea” by John Donne. I’ve put up the first stanza with a link to the entire poem:
The Flea
by John Donne (1572–1631)
Mark but this flea, and mark in this,
How little that which thou deniest me is;
It sucked me first, and now sucks thee,
And in this flea our two bloods mingled be;
Thou know’st that this cannot be said
A sin, nor shame, nor loss of maidenhead,
Yet this enjoys before it woo,
And pampered swells with one blood made of two,
And this, alas, is more than we would do.
The full poem can be read at http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/175764
Just quick kudos to a site that is intellectual without being stuffy, with people who enjoy delving into the modern relevance of poems from 500 years ago.
Thank you, Chris for your lovely comment!
It definitely doesn’t feel like 500 years … seems like yesterday.
This is a really great site, inspiring (and fun) to read such literate and thoughtful commentary. AnnaLee, in answer to your question about the meaning of Marvel’s last two lines:
Thus, though we cannot make our sun
Stand still, yet we will make him run.
….the first goofy thing that popped into my mind is simply, “Time flies when you’re having fun.” If Marvel had been born a few centuries later, he might have said something similar — it does rhymes. (Ha.)
And I am intrigued with the question of whether poetry can actually seduce. Might as well ask whether art in any form is any good in the bedroom. I think we certainly want to believe so. Visual art probably most of all (“Care to see my etchings, my dear?”) A good conflation of both the visual and the literary is the scene in Woody Allen’s film Hannah and Her Sisters, where Michael Caine ambushes Barbara Hershey in a book store (as I remember it) and quotes (or reads?) e. e. cummings’ poem “somewhere i have never travelled.” The last stanza nearly makes her (and probably women in theaters everywhere) swoon:
(I do not know what it is about you that closes
and opens; only something in me understands
the voice of your eyes is deeper than all roses)
nobody, not even the rain, has such small hands.
Full poem here:
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15401
cummings’ approach is much more subtle and romantic than Marvel’s badgering threats about turning into a virgin corpse. cummings is literally flowery. Which brings up another cliche: “You catch more flies with honey.”
Ann, I loved the example of how poetry can seduce through your remembering Woody Allen’s film, “Hannah and Her Sisters.” Thanks for providing the link. I did read the full poem which I remembered loving (ha, ha) when I first read it. Last year we had a OPPC meeting on the theme of poetry and the movies. The ee cummings (and goings) would have been a great choice for that evening, too.
I did laugh at your comment about Marvell badgering his love by reminding her she can’t take it to the grave.
About the last two lines, Marvell also seems to say, let’s grab the moment and create new life. Marvell wants to make haste. While cummings seems to delight in the word play as if he has all the time in the world.
I’m also curious about the two bodies of water in the Marvell poem. And I have been neatly skirting around these four lines. I feel I understand them in general, but I’d like to know more about why he chose the Ganges and Humber.
Thou by the Indian Ganges’ side
Shouldst rubies find; I by the tide
Of Humber would complain. I would
Love you ten years before the Flood;
I read somewhere that Humber flowed through or near the town that Marvell was from. I plan to read more about this and then see if I have an idea of why he uses the word “complain.”
Thanks for commenting!
I love your comments, Ann, and it’s interesting that the modern poet also picks up the image of sexuality and the rose. It definitely sounds as though cummings also is talking about the vulva (“gather ye rosebuds while you may”) just like Marvell and Herrick!
AnnaLee, I think the scenes that Marvell sets are exotic and enter into the “world enough” element of the first line. Defintiely if we had world enough and time we would like to see those scenes as well!
The slow rate of seduction reminds me of Gilbert and Sullivan’s The Mikado in which is praised the left shoulder blade of a woman.
Although I agree with Ann that an actor reading almost any poem could be seductive, all of these poems leave me a bit cold because they are impersonal. Perhaps cummings is the best in this department but is she the only one with deep eyes? To be seduced I want someone to see what is unique about me!
Picking up the discussion of the two rivers in Marvell’s poem, I looked harder at the opening lines:
If we had unlimited time, there would be no crime in putting other things before our love. We would not have to rush into anything. “Thou” might explore exotic faraway India and walk the long River Ganges perhaps to find rare rubies, while “I” stayed home along the boring Humber, kvetching and pining away.
Of course humans don’t have this kind of time, so he’s saying it IS a crime for her to withhold. To me, Marvel even threatens her a little in this line: “This coyness, lady, were no crime,” by the way he lines up his words making the word “lady” stand out and ending in the word “crime.”
Although the narrator and his mistress seem anonymous, I think Marvell reveals himself to be the seducer when he references the Humber which flows near or through his hometown.
The beginning of the Marvell poem reminds me of the Larkin poem from last week in that they both take things to extremes to make their point. And like the Larkin poem I found Marvell’s first stanza humorous. I can just hear him trying to persuade her. I loved the phrase “vegetable love” and also appreciated the comparison of that phrase with the red meat animality of the last stanza.
I found the rough and violent words used in the last stanza somewhat frightening. Is this where the frustration of his desires takes him? He seems to be totally in control in the first stanza but in the end he’s wild yet neither can stop death. In that way he truly makes his point.
As for the ability of poetry or any art form to seduce… it’s true. Years ago I was dating a man who took me to visit his good friend, a sound sculptor. The work was so creative and lively that I was totally taken in by it and thought I was in love with the man who brought me there. Alas, it was the art that had me. And how many of us can refuse poems being written in our honor by a smitten suitor?
Jane, I love your description of the poem and then when I read what you said about suitors writing poetry, I was thinking, “I wish…” And then I remembered that I married the man who wrote, “Ode to an Early Morning Breakfast with Abigail.” You are so right!
Jane and Abigail, I enjoyed reading both of your real life examples of how language, whether written, or heard or seen, has the ability to evoke and provoke intimacy.
I also am intrigued with Marvell’s reference to the River Ganges, and suspected there was some period context we might be missing. I googled Andrew Marvell and the River Ganges and found an old blog (wonderingminstrels.blogspot.com/1999/07/to-his-coy-mistress-andrew-marvell.html) that started off with this funny tale:
[Marvell’s poem is charming and funny, but the reason I’m sending this is not
so much for the poem itself, as for how a friend of mine used it to get some
rather unlikely people to appreciate poetry. These were a group of college
jocks whom my friend was tutoring to prepare them for foreign study exams.
Marvell’s poem was part of the syllabus and as might be expected, my friend
was not making much headway. He explained the meter, and the rhyme, and
Marvell’s background, but all he was getting was waves of boredom. Finally,
he said, “listen guys, you know what this poem is about? Its about not
getting laid. The writer is complaining that his girlfriend is not giving
him enough”… After that tuition programme was over one of the jocks’
mother told him, “I’m really impressed by your teaching. I don’t know how
you’ve done it, but my son is really into literature and poetry now.”]
A further blog comment regarding the Ganges/rubies references says, with all misspellings intact:
“In the time of Andrew Marvell and also of many other metaphysical poets there were explorers such as Christopher Collumbus exploring the world, and such poets like to incorparate these new lands and ideas into their work.
Rubies were believed to preserve virginity, which in the first stanza (the thesis) he is saying stating if they had enough time togethr that is what he would like to do.
India was an exotic land, full of colour and herbs etc, this is ironic because infact he is writting the poem next to the river Humber, which isn’t as exciting and as the river Ganges.”
That rubies/virginity link might need further research. But the funniest post on the bottom of this blog was this one:
[I think Meat Loaf ‘s Paradise by the dash board lights is a perfect
song to put beside ‘Mistress’. A touch of genius in the suggestion.
It shows how things have changed with time too. (I once used the poem
with a group of young people and asked them to become the Coy
Mistress and write a letter of reply to Andrew Marvel. One letter,
from a young woman began ‘ Dear Andy, how dare you write me such a
fruity letter!’]
Or maybe this is the funniest one:
penis enlargement, penis enlargement pills, male enhancement, male enhancement pills
Penis enlargement pills have been proven is the best way to make the penis bigger and effective to increase men’s sexual performance.vimax pills, vigrx plus, prosolution pills, maleextra
Seriously, it was really there in the To His Coy Mistress thread!
Very funny! We tried seducing more people into coming to the One Page Poetry Circle with Poetry and Sex (one of our past themes) and now again, with Poetry and Seduction! We did get a nice turnout for Poetry and Sex. I have to say the idea of that came from my husband who said it would be the best way to attract attendees.
Hoping it’s not too late, here is my long-distance contribution of a poem on the theme of “Poetry and Seduction,” although I would call the poem I’m submitting an “anti-seduction” poem. It is the response of a woman to perhaps a male poet when he has been too grandiose and insistent in expressing his desire….
To Hell with Your Fertility Cult
by Gary Snyder
To hell with your Fertility Cult, I
never did want to be fertile,
you think this world is just
a goddamn oversize cunt, don’t you? Everything
crowding in and out of it like a railway
terminal and isn’t that nice?
all those people going on trips.
well this is what it feels like, she said,
—and knocked the hen off the nest, grabbed
an egg and threw it at him, right in the face,
the half-formed chick half clung, half slid
half-alive, down over his cheekbone, around
the corner of his mouth, part of it thick
yellow and faintly visible bones, and it drippt
down his cheek and chin
—he had nothing to say.
* * * *
And then there is a William Carlos Williams poem about a seductive plea by a husband to his wife:
Après le Bain
I gotta
buy me a new
girdle.
(I’ll buy
you one) O.K.
(I wish
you’d wig-
gle that way
for me,
I’d be
a happy man)
I GOTTA
wig-
gle for this.
(You pig)
For almost 39 years of marriage, my wife has heard me say, when she wiggles into a tight pair of jeans, “I wish you’d wiggle that way for me, I’d be a happy man.” And knowing the poem and her part in the ritual, she rolls her eyes and says, “I GOTTA wiggle for this (you pig).” For some reason, I haven’t yet been successful in seducing her with that plea from the poem!
Larry
One more? Originally, I thought about posting the following poem, but decided not to, because the poet, Natasha Josefowitz, is not a ‘major league’ poet. But then today, I was reading an online article about an increasing reason why women today say they are seeking a divorce, which is a lack of appreciation from their spouse. The article starts out by quoting William James:
“The deepest craving of human nature is the need to be appreciated.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/monique-honaman/if-not-shown-appreciation_b_2805222.html?ncid=webmail4
Here is the poem:
Foreplay
It starts in the morning
when I wake up
as you hold me
and ask me how I slept.
It starts at breakfast
when you tell me
what you’ll be doing at work
and where you can be reached.
It’s how sweetly you kiss me
when you leave
and it continues during the day
when you call just to say hello.
It’s when you come home
and hug me
and tell me you miss me
and ask me about my day.
It goes on during dinner
when we listen to each other
and you hold my hand
as we share our thoughts.
And when we finally go to bed
I am ready to make love.
–Natasha Josefowitz (from the anthology, “Passionate Hearts: The Poetry of Sexual Love,” ed. Wendy Maltz, New World Library, 1996)
I think that in some ways, all successful seduction is at least partly a self-seduction, an allowing of oneself to be seduced.
(One problem I have with this poem is its depiction of an idealized day in the life of a couple. I consider myself to be appreciative of my wife, and I do all of those things at one time and another, but I don’t recall ever doing all of those things in one day!)
Larry
Now back to Marvell’s poem (this is good, because it’s motivating me to finally start unpacking my books six months after my move!).
The following is a reply to “To His Coy Mistress,” which I found in the anthology, “Conversation Pieces: Poems that Talk to Other Poems,” ed. Brown & Schechter, Knopf, 2007. (The poem can also be found at The Poetry Foundation website: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/175353 )
Coy Mistress
By Annie Finch
Sir, I am not a bird of prey:
a Lady does not seize the day.
I trust that brief Time will unfold
our youth, before he makes us old.
How could we two write lines of rhyme
were we not fond of numbered Time
and grateful to the vast and sweet
trials his days will make us meet:
The Grave’s not just the body’s curse;
no skeleton can pen a verse!
So while this numbered World we see,
let’s sweeten Time with poetry,
and Time, in turn, may sweeten Love
and give us time our love to prove.
You’ve praised my eyes, forehead, breast:
you’ve all our lives to praise the rest.
And another response to “To His Coy Mistress”:
To His Not-So-Coy Mistress
Time’s Winged Chariot (poets say)
Warns us to love while yet we may;
Must I not hurry all the more
Who find it parked outside my door?
For those who sipped Love in their prime
Must gulp it down at Closing Time.
–Wynford Vaughan-Thomas (from the anthology, “The Brand X Anthology of Poetry: A Parody Anthology,” ed. William Zaranka, Apple-wood Books, 1981 (Burnt Norton Edition)
Sorry this is coming so late on the day of the meeting, but I ‘cheated’, and did some sleuthing in critical material about “To His Coy Mistress,” because there are references in it which I find puzzling.
The following will be a summary of points put forth in the book, “World Enough and Time: The Life of Andrew Marvell,” Nicholas Murray, St. Martin’s Press, 1999.
In this book, the author discusses the poem in relation to the political and social context of the time in which it was written (although the date of composition is not known, there is speculation that it was written sometime in the early 1650s).
“conversion of the Jews”
Murray points out that in England in the 1650s, there were a number of “Millenarian” sects–believing that the time of the biblical Revelation was close at hand. One of the things foretold in the Book of Revelation is, apparently, that the Jews will be converted before the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the world. So, if indeed the end-time is near at hand, this gives the poem all the more sense of urgency.
“ten years before the Flood”
I’ve wondered why such a specific number is being used. Apparently, end-times was also thought to contain a second flood as well. Murray says that “Raleigh, in his ‘History of the World’ (1614) forecast the Flood in ‘anno mundi’ 1656.” Of course, this would date its composition to 1646. Another critic points out that by 17th-century British reckoning, the flood originally happened in 1656 BCE, so 1656 CE would be an anniversary of sorts of the biblical Flood.
“vast eternity”
Murray points out that in Marvell’s time, it wasn’t thought wrong to borrow phrases from other poets. Murray points out that a poem by Abraham Cowley, “The Mistress,” published in 1647, also contains the phrase “vast Eternity.”
* * *
To bring this to a close for today, I read in another book, which I can’t re-locate at the moment, that “we cannot make our sun stand still” is an allusion to Joshua commanding the sun to stand still over Gideon. If I can locate it again, I will give credit to the critic here.
Larry
Larry, thank you for writing so much about Poetry and Seduction on the day of the meeting! You are making me eager to talk about these poems, and others, with the group. I just want to post one poem that I love but am not bringing tonight.
DELIGHT IN DISORDER.
by Robert Herrick
A SWEET disorder in the dress
Kindles in clothes a wantonness :
A lawn about the shoulders thrown
Into a fine distraction :
An erring lace which here and there
Enthrals the crimson stomacher :
A cuff neglectful, and thereby
Ribbons to flow confusedly :
A winning wave (deserving note)
In the tempestuous petticoat :
A careless shoe-string, in whose tie
I see a wild civility :
Do more bewitch me than when art
Is too precise in every part.
There is something so lovely about a man noticing the minutia of a woman’s clothing. I defintiely know what Herrick is talking about in the seductive quality of something not being perfect. Yet it also makes me sad as I never dress with any “art” and hate the disorder of life around me — especially in my study